Discussion:
True Flamenco
(too old to reply)
Peter Taylor
2005-09-27 14:32:00 UTC
Permalink
I have only come into this discussion recently! There seems to be something
of a hissy fit going on as to what is "true" flamenco, between Antony and
various others.

To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music can
distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and care. And
that which is not.

I have experienced flamenco played all over spain, and in other countries.
Some of it has been sublime, and some truly awful. And the nationality of
the participants does not seem to matter as much as their passion.

To suggest that true Flamenco can only be in Spain, and the Spanish, is as
ludicrous as saying that true cricket can only be played by the English in
England. (well, actually, that is in fact true).
nospam
2005-09-27 23:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Taylor
I have only come into this discussion recently! There seems to be something
of a hissy fit going on as to what is "true" flamenco, between Antony and
various others.
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music can
distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and care. And
that which is not.
I have experienced flamenco played all over spain, and in other countries.
Some of it has been sublime, and some truly awful. And the nationality of
the participants does not seem to matter as much as their passion.
To suggest that true Flamenco can only be in Spain, and the Spanish, is as
ludicrous as saying that true cricket can only be played by the English in
England. (well, actually, that is in fact true).
I think your right. But Antony will say you are wrong and piss all over
your opinion.Because he is THE only authority on the subject.
I just like to bust his balls because, well because I like to bust
peoples balls who act and react like that. Most people have common sense
about these things and but there is always one or two out there who are
a little Screwy...anyway ..have fun and have a nice day...
Antony
2005-09-28 15:04:56 UTC
Permalink
Yes I totally agree with you . You don't have to be Spanish to be a good
flamenco guitarist but you do need to spend some time in Spain to soak up
the ambience and take lessons there - you can't learn flamenco from a book.
And you need to work with dancers and singers for many years.
Flamenco is pure when it is played with integrity and remains true to the
art grounded in the traditional.
Don't listen to this guy "nospan" he likes to blow air to try and impress .
If you don't give audience to a clown he will go away!
Post by Peter Taylor
I have only come into this discussion recently! There seems to be something
of a hissy fit going on as to what is "true" flamenco, between Antony and
various others.
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music can
distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and care.
And
that which is not.
I have experienced flamenco played all over spain, and in other countries.
Some of it has been sublime, and some truly awful. And the nationality of
the participants does not seem to matter as much as their passion.
To suggest that true Flamenco can only be in Spain, and the Spanish, is as
ludicrous as saying that true cricket can only be played by the English in
England. (well, actually, that is in fact true).
John J van Gool
2005-09-28 16:05:40 UTC
Permalink
What about study flamenco in Rotterdam with Paco Peña?
--
John J van Gool, luthier
http://www.lutherie-van-gool.nl
Antony
2005-09-29 01:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Yes this is an excellent course as long as you don't become a Paco Pena
clone like a couple of his students I met in Cordoba in 1990. You would
still need to spend time in Spain and mix with the people, learn the
language and see a lot of flamenco.
Post by John J van Gool
What about study flamenco in Rotterdam with Paco Peña?
--
John J van Gool, luthier
http://www.lutherie-van-gool.nl
nospam
2005-09-30 18:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Antony
Yes this is an excellent course as long as you don't become a Paco Pena
clone like a couple of his students I met in Cordoba in 1990. You would
still need to spend time in Spain and mix with the people, learn the
language and see a lot of flamenco.
Post by John J van Gool
What about study flamenco in Rotterdam with Paco Peña?
--
John J van Gool, luthier
http://www.lutherie-van-gool.nlAntony
I agree with your comments and I am pleased that you have toned down
your rhetoric. This makes you seem much more intelligent.
I do believe you have a vast knowledge on the subject of Flamenco music.
However I do not agree with the way you present your opinions sometimes.

Anyway, I would like to extend my apology to you, for my own childish
behavior we should be using this internet for more positve than negative..

Sincerely
Duane
Soniquete
2005-10-15 18:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Taylor
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music can
distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and
care. And
that which is not.
I have experienced flamenco played all over spain, and in other
countries. Some of it has been sublime, and some truly awful. And
the nationality of the participants does not seem to matter as much
as their passion.
To suggest that true Flamenco can only be in Spain, and the Spanish,
is as ludicrous as saying that true cricket can only be played by the
English in England. (well, actually, that is in fact true).
Sorry, you are wrong in your argument. Yes, I agree that true flamenco
can be played by someone who wasn't born in Spain (just check out Jason
Maguire, Michio, Calvin Hazen, Roberto Castellon, Bruce Patterson, Maria
Benitez, Miguel Antonio, Amir Haddad, Miguel del Bastide, and David Serva
for some quick references to true flamencos who aren't Spanish-born)

However, flamenco is not "in the ear of the beholder." Just because
someone calls it flamenco does not make it so. A lover of music may
recognize great music, melody, or actual technique, but a love of music
will teach you NOTHING about flamenco.

Want proof? Be a "lover of music" and a great technical guitarist and
try to accompany a flamenco singer. You will have ZERO idea of what to
do. If you do not have "compás," you have NOTHING as far as flamenco.
You will be laughed at and probably physically thrown out of the peña.

A world-class classical pianist can decide to play jazz tomorrow and will
be booed off the stage of a true jazz club. Does it make him a crappy
musician? Not at all. He just doesn't know anything about jazz....yet.

Strunz and Farah are great guitarists. Really something else. But they
aren't flamenco guitarists. Even if you and a million listeners say "but
their music is honest and pure." Whatever...it won't admit to a hill of
beans in a flamenco tablao, with a dancer, with a singer, or with anyone
who wants to do palmas to their music. Why? It's NOT flamenco.

Ottmar Liebert, apart from being an asshole, is a fine musician with a
great ear for melody. His music is pretty and millions of people love
it. Great. However, he is as flamenco as Black Sabbath is polka. No
comparison.

As Ottmar once told me, "I couldn't accompany a dancer if you held a gun
to my head." Guess what that makes him? a NON flamenco guitarist.

Flamenco is the ONLY art form I know of where the general public insists
that something like Ottmar Liebert, Jesse Cook, Oscar Lopez and the Gipsy
Kings are the REAL FLAMENCO, despite the statements of those who live for
the true artform.

Who decides? The Flamencos do. Not the general public. I don't decide
what is true Fado music and what isn't because I am not an expert on it.
So someone who really knows nothing about flamenco shouldn't say "if it's
pretty and honest, then it's flamenco."
Antony
2005-10-18 15:01:38 UTC
Permalink
Bravo! Well said and honest.
Post by Soniquete
Post by Peter Taylor
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music can
distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and
care. And
that which is not.
I have experienced flamenco played all over spain, and in other
countries. Some of it has been sublime, and some truly awful. And
the nationality of the participants does not seem to matter as much
as their passion.
To suggest that true Flamenco can only be in Spain, and the Spanish,
is as ludicrous as saying that true cricket can only be played by the
English in England. (well, actually, that is in fact true).
Sorry, you are wrong in your argument. Yes, I agree that true flamenco
can be played by someone who wasn't born in Spain (just check out Jason
Maguire, Michio, Calvin Hazen, Roberto Castellon, Bruce Patterson, Maria
Benitez, Miguel Antonio, Amir Haddad, Miguel del Bastide, and David Serva
for some quick references to true flamencos who aren't Spanish-born)
However, flamenco is not "in the ear of the beholder." Just because
someone calls it flamenco does not make it so. A lover of music may
recognize great music, melody, or actual technique, but a love of music
will teach you NOTHING about flamenco.
Want proof? Be a "lover of music" and a great technical guitarist and
try to accompany a flamenco singer. You will have ZERO idea of what to
do. If you do not have "compás," you have NOTHING as far as flamenco.
You will be laughed at and probably physically thrown out of the peña.
A world-class classical pianist can decide to play jazz tomorrow and will
be booed off the stage of a true jazz club. Does it make him a crappy
musician? Not at all. He just doesn't know anything about jazz....yet.
Strunz and Farah are great guitarists. Really something else. But they
aren't flamenco guitarists. Even if you and a million listeners say "but
their music is honest and pure." Whatever...it won't admit to a hill of
beans in a flamenco tablao, with a dancer, with a singer, or with anyone
who wants to do palmas to their music. Why? It's NOT flamenco.
Ottmar Liebert, apart from being an asshole, is a fine musician with a
great ear for melody. His music is pretty and millions of people love
it. Great. However, he is as flamenco as Black Sabbath is polka. No
comparison.
As Ottmar once told me, "I couldn't accompany a dancer if you held a gun
to my head." Guess what that makes him? a NON flamenco guitarist.
Flamenco is the ONLY art form I know of where the general public insists
that something like Ottmar Liebert, Jesse Cook, Oscar Lopez and the Gipsy
Kings are the REAL FLAMENCO, despite the statements of those who live for
the true artform.
Who decides? The Flamencos do. Not the general public. I don't decide
what is true Fado music and what isn't because I am not an expert on it.
So someone who really knows nothing about flamenco shouldn't say "if it's
pretty and honest, then it's flamenco."
No Weed
2005-12-17 01:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Antony....shame on youuu
Post by Soniquete
Post by Peter Taylor
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music can
distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and
care. And
that which is not.
I have experienced flamenco played all over spain, and in other
countries. Some of it has been sublime, and some truly awful. And
the nationality of the participants does not seem to matter as much
as their passion.
To suggest that true Flamenco can only be in Spain, and the Spanish,
is as ludicrous as saying that true cricket can only be played by the
English in England. (well, actually, that is in fact true).
Sorry, you are wrong in your argument. Yes, I agree that true flamenco
can be played by someone who wasn't born in Spain (just check out Jason
Maguire, Michio, Calvin Hazen, Roberto Castellon, Bruce Patterson, Maria
Benitez, Miguel Antonio, Amir Haddad, Miguel del Bastide, and David Serva
for some quick references to true flamencos who aren't Spanish-born)
However, flamenco is not "in the ear of the beholder." Just because
someone calls it flamenco does not make it so. A lover of music may
recognize great music, melody, or actual technique, but a love of music
will teach you NOTHING about flamenco.
Want proof? Be a "lover of music" and a great technical guitarist and
try to accompany a flamenco singer. You will have ZERO idea of what to
do. If you do not have "compás," you have NOTHING as far as flamenco.
You will be laughed at and probably physically thrown out of the peña.
A world-class classical pianist can decide to play jazz tomorrow and will
be booed off the stage of a true jazz club. Does it make him a crappy
musician? Not at all. He just doesn't know anything about jazz....yet.
Strunz and Farah are great guitarists. Really something else. But they
aren't flamenco guitarists. Even if you and a million listeners say "but
their music is honest and pure." Whatever...it won't admit to a hill of
beans in a flamenco tablao, with a dancer, with a singer, or with anyone
who wants to do palmas to their music. Why? It's NOT flamenco.
Ottmar Liebert, apart from being an asshole, is a fine musician with a
great ear for melody. His music is pretty and millions of people love
it. Great. However, he is as flamenco as Black Sabbath is polka. No
comparison.
As Ottmar once told me, "I couldn't accompany a dancer if you held a gun
to my head." Guess what that makes him? a NON flamenco guitarist.
Flamenco is the ONLY art form I know of where the general public insists
that something like Ottmar Liebert, Jesse Cook, Oscar Lopez and the Gipsy
Kings are the REAL FLAMENCO, despite the statements of those who live for
the true artform.
Who decides? The Flamencos do. Not the general public. I don't decide
what is true Fado music and what isn't because I am not an expert on it.
So someone who really knows nothing about flamenco shouldn't say "if it's
pretty and honest, then it's flamenco."
David Sternlight
2006-01-02 20:16:25 UTC
Permalink
It's more difficult than that. There's been a long gypsy tradition of
ripping off the "payos". Many of the greatest Flamenco guitarists of
the past deliberately recorded errors so their stuff could not be
copied accurately. The search for the buck is particularly endemic in
"modern Flamenco" which bears as much resemblance to true Flamenco as
"Jacques Loussier's "Play Bach Jazz" does to "true" Bach. Some of
today's greatest Flamenco guitarists are recording this kind of stuff
because it sells; nevertheless, does anyone doubt that P:aco de Lucia
can play "true" Flamenco whenever he wants to?

So where does that leave us? As in the past, with "El Arte". El Arte
Flamenco is a formally structured art form. It has prescribed compas,
tipos, traditional falsetas and vocal melodies, and classical letras of
the cante. To avoid the value judgements associated with the word
"true" and the associated heat in discussions, perhaps the phrase
"traditional Flamenco" or "classical Flamenco" would be more useful.

There are some extreme cases, even among Spanish Gypsies from the
tradition. Many years ago in New York City I patiently explained the
notion of compas to an advanced student of Carlos Montoya, who couldn't
play in compas (Montoya, not the student) if it was beaten into his
head by an elephant. To the student it was a revelation, and once
explained, he understood that he had been taken for a ride, and where
he should be studying.

P.S. For identification only, though I don't claim to have the true
duende since I'm a non-Hispanic American, I learned flamenco guitar
from Sabicas and his brother Diego Castellon and was part of the New
York City flamenco crowd in the '50s and '60s.

By the way, I'll share a discovery I made many years ago. When you play
for dancers, something goes "click" and "you" are not there any more;
you're just in the experience. When it's over, you sometimes have to
find out what happened from others who were listening.

David
Post by Soniquete
Post by Peter Taylor
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music can
distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and
care. And
that which is not.
I have experienced flamenco played all over spain, and in other
countries. Some of it has been sublime, and some truly awful. And
the nationality of the participants does not seem to matter as much
as their passion.
To suggest that true Flamenco can only be in Spain, and the Spanish,
is as ludicrous as saying that true cricket can only be played by the
English in England. (well, actually, that is in fact true).
Sorry, you are wrong in your argument. Yes, I agree that true flamenco
can be played by someone who wasn't born in Spain (just check out Jason
Maguire, Michio, Calvin Hazen, Roberto Castellon, Bruce Patterson,
Maria Benitez, Miguel Antonio, Amir Haddad, Miguel del Bastide, and
David Serva for some quick references to true flamencos who aren't
Spanish-born)
However, flamenco is not "in the ear of the beholder." Just because
someone calls it flamenco does not make it so. A lover of music may
recognize great music, melody, or actual technique, but a love of music
will teach you NOTHING about flamenco.
Want proof? Be a "lover of music" and a great technical guitarist and
try to accompany a flamenco singer. You will have ZERO idea of what to
do. If you do not have "compás," you have NOTHING as far as flamenco.
You will be laughed at and probably physically thrown out of the peña.
A world-class classical pianist can decide to play jazz tomorrow and
will be booed off the stage of a true jazz club. Does it make him a
crappy musician? Not at all. He just doesn't know anything about
jazz....yet.
Strunz and Farah are great guitarists. Really something else. But
they aren't flamenco guitarists. Even if you and a million listeners
say "but their music is honest and pure." Whatever...it won't admit to
a hill of beans in a flamenco tablao, with a dancer, with a singer, or
with anyone who wants to do palmas to their music. Why? It's NOT
flamenco.
Ottmar Liebert, apart from being an asshole, is a fine musician with a
great ear for melody. His music is pretty and millions of people love
it. Great. However, he is as flamenco as Black Sabbath is polka. No
comparison.
As Ottmar once told me, "I couldn't accompany a dancer if you held a
gun to my head." Guess what that makes him? a NON flamenco guitarist.
Flamenco is the ONLY art form I know of where the general public
insists that something like Ottmar Liebert, Jesse Cook, Oscar Lopez and
the Gipsy Kings are the REAL FLAMENCO, despite the statements of those
who live for the true artform.
Who decides? The Flamencos do. Not the general public. I don't
decide what is true Fado music and what isn't because I am not an
expert on it. So someone who really knows nothing about flamenco
shouldn't say "if it's pretty and honest, then it's flamenco."
David Raleigh Arnold
2005-10-19 14:28:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Taylor
I have only come into this discussion recently! There seems to be
something of a hissy fit going on as to what is "true" flamenco, between
Antony and various others.
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music
can distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and care.
And that which is not.
I think the best thing is to give it up. "True" flamenco has a singer,
a dancer, and a guitar player. Solo guitar music is not "authentic"
flamenco, and it can never be. Now just do the music and worry about
something else. ;-) daveA
--
The only technical exercises for all guitarists worth a lifetime
of practice: "Dynamic Guitar Technique". Nothing else is close.
Free download: http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
daveA David Raleigh Arnold dra..at..openguitar.com
No Weed
2005-12-17 00:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Oh please you have no I dea what you are speaking of..There is only
person that person is Anntony from down under. Besides you don't have
cool spanish name Like Antony...what is your name? David Raliegh
ARnold...how could you even know the word Flamenco???? How? Go away and
do not bestow us with your silly unpleasnatries about what is real and
what is NOT. ONLY Antony knows and I am forever grateful for that. In
fact he even knows more than Paco himself...And when he meets Paco he is
going to tell him so...I can not wait for the day of reckoning to
arrive...and what about Guillermo Salazar for sure he knows nothing of
being a true flamenco...and only Antony can call MARIO ESCUDERO a poser
who knows nothing of DANZAS Y CANCIONES DE ANDALUCIA. Only Antony truly
knows and he will keep those secrets. Carlos Ramos, Niño de Almaden,
Carlos Montoya,Nino de Alicante, Enrique Montoya,Juan Serrano,Paco
Pena,Pepe del Sur,PACO AGUILERA,Andres Batista,Manuel Cano,Mariano
Cordoba,Diego Del Gastar all of them know NOTHING! nothing about what
true honest flamenco is there is only one supreme being in our company
who can truly define Flamenco at it's most pure and primal being and
that person is:.........................Antony Gitano???? is that your
real name? hah.........a joke
Post by David Raleigh Arnold
Post by Peter Taylor
I have only come into this discussion recently! There seems to be
something of a hissy fit going on as to what is "true" flamenco, between
Antony and various others.
To my mind, flamenco is in th ear of the beholder, and a lover of music
can distinguish between music played with soul and passion, love and care.
And that which is not.
I think the best thing is to give it up. "True" flamenco has a singer,
a dancer, and a guitar player. Solo guitar music is not "authentic"
flamenco, and it can never be. Now just do the music and worry about
something else. ;-) daveA
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